Category talk:Vocabulary

I think it would be helpful to develop a template for use on all vocabulary pages that lists vocabulary in a table so that the lists are easier to read. A possible table format might be:

한국어	English
우체국	post office
우표	postage stamp

Within this table, words should be listed in alphabetical order.

Also, why are we capitalizing the English words in the definitions? I don't think they should be capitalized unless they are proper nouns.

- haesook 17:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

We should come up with a standard. It would also be nice to have a header to use on all of the vocabulary pages. --Mstrum 19:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

If we make a table, maybe we should use a sortable table.. but if we make a table, what about sentence examples in the future?

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I think sentence examples should probably be on individual vocabulary pages, what do you think? That way, when words are used on multiple vocabulary pages (most likely to happen) we don't have to worry about copying examples and things. --Mstrum 03:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

You need to develop a tool such as http://ezcorean.com/ezc_phrase.php which will take a sentence, analyze it into tokens (== words) and then create examples for every word, so that one sentence can be used to create as many examples as there are words. --joesp 01:29, 3 March 2010

Do you want to expand this project to a dictionary project as well? If so then that would definitely work. --Bluesoju 04:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

dictionary project?

add a dictionary project? sounds like my site. Everything is linked to search results. If when searching they click a textbox, then they will get hanja listings, else it's just the dictionary or the grammar ending sections. Searching proverbs is also a checkbox. 고사성어 results come up mixed into the ordinary search results. Then, the user can edit the search results ... there are no individual pages to construct, only entries to add or edit which are all accessible from the search results. This structure is centralized, information is held together by the software, and the software has created cross-referencing to simplify the amount of input necessary by me to create entries. For example, your hanja examples could be used to create examples of vocabulary. And, this is the problem here with koreanwikiproject site.

Hi Joe, thanks for stopping by, i'll answer your post in this blue color. I've attempted to use your search, but it doesn't seem to be very user friendly. I have searched 창문 with the result "no such hanja or hanja reading found"

창문 is not a hanja. Of course, if you click the hanja box for 창문 you will get no results, same as if you search the dictionary for 雪 without checking the hanja box

, then I've clicked the 한자 box and get the same result.

trust me, 창문 is in the dictionary. I can't believe it works for me but not for you.

I imagine at this point, the average user would give up.

I used my site to teach me Korean, and with my limited time if there is a user (and there are many) who don't even know what a hanja is, I'm not going to worry about it.

So instead , I opted to go your hanja page and just a random character from the level 8 list. I picked 산. When I clicked on it, I got other results as you mentioned, however there was no other information other than a list of vocabulary words. I had no background information on the character at all.

Yes, that is true, I only have the Korean definition (but for 산 it's such an easy word it defines itself so there's just the English definition). What I have uploaded onto the hanja page is the Korean definition, which if you add to your hanja pages as 디지탈 소주님 is planning with his new template, you will in fact have a sweet deal.

Nothing except vocabulary words. Also for a word like 설악산 雪嶽山, I can't directly go to 雪's page like I could here.

You can if you click the hanja, for example, if you click 雪 you will be taken to the page for 雪. For one of the two posts, it's true, there is no link. I could run the script again to create links for all the words that show up in the examples, not just for half of them, but I don't have the time for that these days.

Our new template here will be able to support more info and show real life pictures showing the 한자 characters in use. After all, if you see it with your own eyes, you tend to trust it more right? By searching our site, it'll list all pages that contain that character, which I think is more effective to give the user the choice of where he wants to go. When the user searches 창문, is he more interested in the character for 窓 or for 門? Also does your search result combine results for 串 for example? Which can be 곶, 관, 천, or 찬.

no, it won't. I haven't taken the time to do that

You say "that is the problem with kwp site", but honestly I see no problem at all. The pages already display examples, on top of that you can see where else they appear on the site, in particular a vocabulary page for a topic. Where's the problem in that?

I applaud your pictures. I applaud it showing the hanja like that in the search results, and also the category showing up. My point was, when I search for 창문 it's not there. I think it's great what you have so far, I am just pointing out that at some point you will have to figure out a way to have 창문 come up from somewhere, I don't know if it'll be from hanja or from grammar or from vocabulary, but it should come up from just one place. More on that below. I can see you missed my point and we are bogged down in details here.

The problem is that, unlike ezcorean.com, here if I search for 창문 I get no results. I'm sure it's an example in the hanja section somewhere. But, the person doing vocabulary can't use the fact that it's already been created in your system to save his/her time. For example, it would be very simple for me to simply create a list of the English words for a category, then query the database (which is the dictionary table, specifically) to just pull up the Korean definitions for them, rather than have to sit there and find the Korean word using naver.com or whatever. That is simply too much work!! Creating these vocabulary pages should be easier. Well, I hope that it is.

I searched 창문 and got 6 results, so i have no idea what you're talking about. When you pull up those Korean definition querying your database, how did those definitions appear in the first place? Did you not add them manually at some point?

But not for the word itself. I'm sure we can agree on that. I even made a picture of it, but I'm sure we can agree that the word 창문 is not defined anywhere among the 6 search results. That's why I chose it as an example for making my point.

Overall, I am tending to see that the wiki structure has increased the edits by users, and is user-friendly to edits, but that the information is becoming disorganized as koreanwikiproject lacks backend cohesion. Hanja pages are completely separate from vocabulary is completely separate from the slang page, for example. where is this all going to go? This kind of integration is structural and needs to be set up early on as correcting it later is painful, as you have to deal not only with a new structure but data conversion as well. I think a programmer should be on this fulltime, if possible. Atleast on my site, it seems like a never-ending task. But, as I said before, I am wiki-ignorant so I can't speak intelligibly on that issue.

Why should the vocabulary, slang, and hanja be together? For example how is Hanja in anyway related to slang? Vocabulary pages are there to teach vocabulary on a certain topic, one is not obligated to learn hanja at the same time, but if the user would like to, he could visit that hanja page if he chooses too. There is no reason he should see unrelated hanja vocabulary on the vocabulary page about a certain topic. For example if a user wants to learn vocabulary related to banking, it's probably because he needs to know, perhaps he might be going to the bank, so why would I put unrelated hanja terms not related to banking on the same page? It makes no sense and forces users to see unwanted, unrelated content.

My point again, was missed. I assume you have different people working, one on hanja and a different on slang, etc. It would be nice, for example, to have a page organized like the following, for 창문. The page would look like this:

word: (blank)
definition: (blank)
slang: (checkbox)
hanja: (blank)
vocabulary section: (pulldown box)
idiomatic?: (checkbox)

So, you see, the word can edit the word in one place and is automatically applied throughout to different pages. If you start to have different lists for vocabulary, which are different from the hanja examples, which is different from slang, you will have overlap, that is my point. I'm sure we can agree that you do not have 창문 the word anywhere yet, the point is you should figure out early on, before you get conflicting data, how to link stuff together, which I can see you have already made great progress on. Don't you see the benefit of such a page, of such a system, for koreanwikiproject.com? A starting point might be using the words from the wiktionary project. I know that you can download a file, and parse it to pull out E-K definitions. I'm not sure about wiktionary for English, but I've written a parser in Perl which has allowed me to pull out the French-French dictionary which is on my site, so it'll take some work. Problem is, each wiktionary project I think uses a different version and the dumps look different so you have to write a parser for each one. Ugh. That's just an idea. You can either accept or reject it. I've offered my dictionary, but I know what you'll think about that suggestion.

I am only pointing out the earlier you figure out a system, the better.

My guess is that, like wiktionary project, you will end up with sweet large downloads of information which people then can use to create more useful sites or software because each entry is chock full of information, but which as a whole provides no functionality to actually help the language user learn the language inteactively.

I don't understand this either. We are giving the user more flexibility on what he wants to learn without force feeding it to him. The user only views relevant information they want to view, not just stuffed with search results.

This lovely brown color is Galinaros. Hullo. With much of what DigitalSoju already covered I agree--though, that is not to say that I am wholly on his side in every way. Those differences are trivial. More importantly, I am curious about your criticism of such efforts as the Wikitionary project, projects through which there is provided the fundamental support and basic understanding of the specific material in question. Keep in mind that these both--Wiktionary, for example, and KWP--are Wikis, and that they are not aimed specifically at giving you an "interactive" experience, but rather informing you about the meaning of a specific term you search. (This term can vary greatly, being things such as a simple word to a full grammar detail.) This being said, I come to wonder over your expectations of these consolidations. Do you expect a textbook walk-through? or something similar? Assuredly, from a Wiki in its infancy you should not. However, this is not to say that Wikis are bound without the abilities of their contributors. I must say that I am quite pleased with the effort already poured into the Hangeul learning project, and I greatly encourage more advances such as this in the future. These supplements are simply perfect for an under-documented language such as Korean. For Wikis like Wiktionary, however, there is already plenty of material online elsewhere for reinforcement. Why would you need "interactive materials" there?

I want you to ask yourself for what you are looking from this Wiki. If you have anything to add, feel free to do so. Thanks, and good night! --Galinaros 05:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I confess that I am worried about the future of koreanwikiproject being *useful* to users, and secondly, that the information is unorganized on the backend, and that the editors are creating duplicating work within the koreanwikiproject system itself.

These are my main concerns. As always, I wish your project the best. I thought it wise to offer my kind advice, and my best wishes to you here @ koreanwikiproject.com. Please accept my criticism/pointers in the spirit with which they were given.

Thank you, Joseph a.k.a. Joe

Honestly I don't see you're concerned about, people every day have found it useful (read some comments on other sites) as well as providing information in a unique way others don't. In fact, you've used information from our site and put it on your site did you not? Therefore even as a person who already runs a site, you found it useful enough to put it on your page. While you claim your intentions are good, to be frank it seems like your current comments and past comments as well seem like you want the project to desist and instead add the content to your site. That's just how it feels sometimes. --DigitalSoju 00:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have been fighting sarcoma (rare, soft-tissue cancer) for almost 2 years now. They took out my left chest, including my lung and pericardium and pleura and diaphragm 14 months ago, and now the tumors are back again on my heart, that one is 4 cm in size (or 9, depending on who measures it), and more cancer all over my right lung. I'm not going to stay alive more than a few months. That's why I've moved my site off the linux computer in my house, and onto a remote server, because basically I'm gonna be dead in a few months. I have done so much work on my site, I am just trying to help. You might think I'm trying to kill your project, but actually it's the reverse. The only self-interest I have is using the dictionary I have made and my experience doing what you're trying to do for the last fricking 5 years of my time in Korea to educate others. I really don't understand why in return you would just criticize me and tell me that you can't even find the results for 창문 and that there is no link so that if you click a hanja to get taken to that page and other such stuff which really just shows that somebody over here has difficulty reading both my search results and what I say here. Geez, it's frustrating. I'm just trying to help. If you want to input 70,000 words into your site by hand, why don't you do that. I'll be dead and won't care anyways, and you'll be happy because I can disappear without you even having to ban me. Way I see it, I have 2 months to live and it's already been a month and a half, but you know I did start chemo again, and there might be a miracle, but don't hold your breath. I'm a Buddhist and he don't do miracles. If you don't believe me, just read my health blog: http://blog.sirfsup.com/~jcs/us/