Difference between revisions of "Talk:Hangeul step 3"
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| − | + | ==ɕ == | |
| − | + | I don't think the description for ㅅ is helpful with the ipa sound as 90% of people have no idea what ɕ even sounds like. I think we should be more descriptive on it's difference english. Which is pretty hard to even describe as it's very slight. --[[User:DigitalSoju|DigitalSoju]] 05:56, 21 October 2010 (PDT) | |
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| − | + | == Missing file == | |
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| − | + | <s>'모두 (every)' seems to be missing its file, [[File:Medu M.mp3]]. --[[User:Gwern|Gwern]] 18:52, 6 June 2010 (PDT)</s> | |
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| − | + | :Thank you for finding that! I've fixed the filename.--[[User:DigitalSoju|DigitalSoju]] 19:14, 6 June 2010 (PDT) | |
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| − | + | As is '모래 (sand)', eg [[File:morae H.mp3]]. --[[User:Gwern|Gwern]] 18:28, 7 June 2010 (PDT) | |
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| − | + | <s>'마시다 (to drink)' is missing one of its files, [[File:asida M.mp3]]. --[[User:Gwern|Gwern]] 09:08, 18 June 2010 (PDT)</s> | |
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| − | + | == Mispronunciation == | |
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| − | + | I've been wondering about "드라마 (drama)". The hangul has 3 blocks, so 3 syllables. But when I listen to it, it sounds exactly as if it has 2 syllables (sort of like 'dla-ma'), and I can't hear 3 syllables. Are the speakers really pronouncing it right, or are they pronouncing it as they know it would be in English (just 2 syllables)? --[[User:Gwern|Gwern]] 03:13, 9 July 2010 (PDT) | |
| − | + | :Great question Gwern. Perhaps we wish answer this on one of the pages too. The first syllable is like saying D in English, but Korean needs a consonant and a vowel paired. So usually often words with the 으 vowel paired with a noun don't get the 으 emphasized. Another example is 스트레스 (stress). The first two syllables (스트) don't have the 으 vowel really emphasized. Does that make sense? I might include this in the FAQ if you found this answer satisfactory. Also do you have any comments on any other sections? Any difficulties? Please let us know as we are constantly trying to make it better --[[User:DigitalSoju|DigitalSoju]] 05:46, 9 July 2010 (PDT) | |
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| − | + | ::Well, that's quite an answer from the two of you. I'm not entirely sure I understand it, but I think I'll come back when I've finished all the steps. | |
| − | + | ::The most annoying thing about the tutorial so far is that it's quite difficult to turn into flashcards (I use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition_software#Software to learn everything permanent). The sound files are the most valuable thing here for me - pronunciation is hard, and there don't seem to be any worthwhile Korean-English dictionaries with audio. The Flash means I can't just go through the wikimarkup and grab URLs to download the MP3s, but I have to edit the source down to internal wikilinks, escape them, prepend a string like "http://www.koreanwikiproject.com/wiki/File:", download the File: page, scrape ''that'' for the actual MP3 file location (which varies randomly for no reason that I can see), and then I can feed the URLs into <tt>wget</tt>. This isn't as bad as it sounds thanks to Emacs macros, but it's still very annoying. I'm not sure what you guys could do about it, though. | |
| − | + | ::Perhaps you could change the Flash stuff so it doesn't infinitely loop the sound? A few repetitions is really enough. --[[User:Gwern|Gwern]] 04:20, 3 August 2010 (PDT) | |
| − | + | :::Hi Gwern. Thanks again for your feedback. The problem is we can't put a set number to loop it, and also because the way the player is, if we don't loop it and the user presses the play button again, it will only play the last sound instead of starting at the beginning. In the future i'd like a different implementation, but at the moment there aren't many options. --[[User:DigitalSoju|DigitalSoju]] 00:57, 4 August 2010 (PDT) | |
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| − | + | ::::Perhaps you could file a bug report with whomever wrote that MW extension; I can't be the only person annoyed by the infinite loop. --[[User:Gwern|Gwern]] | |
| − | + | :::::The problem is there is no bug with the player. It's set to loop infinitely in the options (until you manually hit stop). Hear it as many times as you want, then hit the stop button, move onto the next sound. That's how these lessons were designed with that player in mind. --[[User:DigitalSoju|DigitalSoju]] 02:18, 4 August 2010 (PDT) | |
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| − | + | :<font color=brown>Gwern, from my knowledge I can tell you that the audibility of ㅡ in many cases is slight. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that words using it will not sound as you would expect. Natives, of course, will naturally roll such sounds together to the point where they may not easily be recognized. Perhaps this is the case in this scenario. | |
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| − | + | :On the other hand, the example you presented, 드라마, is a loanword originating from English. As is likely obvious, most Koreans have at least some background in English, and, if these people have a considerable knowledge of accurate English phonetics, they may realize that 드라마 is loanword and thus adapt its pronunciation to sound more like its mother, ''drama''. This could be the case with the guest speakers. | |
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| − | + | :To elaborate on this thought, the onset of ''drama'' obvious includes "d" and "r", and, to account for that, ㄷ and ㄹ (respectively) must both be present. As DigitalSoju mentioned, consonants in hangeul must be accompanied with vowels and, as we know, more than one consonant may not appear in the beginning of any syllable. (Note, though, that double consonants are a different case. They are not two fundamentally different sounds, but instead are representations of a stressed form of the double letter composing it. Thus, we may leave them outside this consideration.) When importing this word into Korean, these rules must be obeyed. To accompany this rule, Koreans often appropriately insert the vowel "ㅡ" to acquire the sound of a single English letter. (Example: ''Brad'' has two consonants in its onset. We would then need '''b''' = 브 to at least accompany the first.) | |
| − | + | ||
| − | + | :This may seem slightly off-topic, but it's not. The fact that writing requires particular rules does not, in necessity, dictate the pronunciation of a word. In addition to having some knowledge of English phonetics, Koreans may also have (surprisingly) retained the pronunciation of ''drama'' in its passage to emerging speakers (that is, children of newer generations). Perhaps you may simply consider "ㅡ" as being an agent of writing rather than pronunciation. | |
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| − | + | :If that is not satisfactory, then perhaps you may also consider the sound of "ㅡ". When undergoing the process of writing an English word in hangeul, those who transliterate must obey the aforementioned rules. To find a vowel to accompany a consonant, they would need one whose sound is slight and not particularly noticeable when reading as being an agent of phonetic transliteration. It also should blend with the consonant's pronunciation as best as possible. "ㅡ" fits this criteria the best among the other vowels. | |
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| − | + | :For example, if I wanted to transliterate the English word ''strange'', I would need to pay careful attention to the onset, which contains three consonants. In hangeul, this is troublesome. To avoid it, we would use the above steps. | |
| − | + | :*Onset: "str" -> '''s''' = 스, '''t''' = 트, '''r''' = 랜 (Notice that I factored in the following rime in the transliteration of "r".) | |
| − | + | :*Rime: "ange" -> (Following from 랜...) '''ange''' = 즈 | |
| − | + | :*Rough Transliteration: "strange" -> 스트랜즈 | |
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| − | + | :Now, my goal is not to explain the process of transliteration, so I won't elaborate on everything. Just note that consonants appearing back-to-back in English words, like "str-" in ''strange'', are subject to the mercy of the rules of hangeul when transliterating. It is therefore not guaranteed that "ㅡ" will maintain its full sound. Reiterating again, this is likely the case in 드라마. (Keep in mind that an alphabet is designed for a language's sounds. A language, then, is not entirely dependent on the sounds represented within that alphabet.) | |
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| − | + | :Anyway, my approach is probably overkill. These are just my thoughts and so should be taken critically ^^ . Also note that my transliteration in "스트랜즈" isn't '''exactly''' correct, though, for the sake of example, it well serves its purpose. Sorry if I repeated myself, too... I'm getting tired. If you've any questions, don't hesitate to post them on my talk page or respond here :) --[[User:Galinaros|Galinaros]] 22:34, 9 July 2010 (PDT) </font> | |
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| − | + | == Sorry, no, Australians should *not* be advised to say ㅐlike they would say the 'a' in 'trap'. == | |
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| − | + | Pleasantries where they're due, I'm a first time discusser and I love this WIKI and the work put into it! | |
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| − | + | New Zealanders generally *do* say the 'a' in 'trap' like ㅐ, but Australians *don't* (I'm an Aussie) - unless they're imitating a Kiwi. If this can be amended, that'd be great. | |
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| − | + | == ㅐ and North American English == | |
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| − | + | Going through the lessons, I found the "dress" example for ㅐ to be very confusing. For North Americans, we say "dress" with the /ɛ/ vowel (/d͡ʒrɛs/), yet the recording for ㅐ sounds much more like /e/ ([http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/ see here for a chart with audio] - ''you'll have to click on the phonemes, I can't find a direct link to the sounds, sorry!''). A better example might be to have readers compare it to the first vowel sound in the word "way." (maybe write "For North Americans, this is the first part of the vowel in the word way (IPA: /w'''e'''i/). Be careful not to continue the vowel to the 'ee' sound."). | |
| − | + | I know that "way" is spoken with a diphthong (I couldn't think of any words that have /e/ without one), but this example is much closer to ㅐ for North Americans. | |
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Latest revision as of 21:00, 13 January 2017
Contents
ɕ
I don't think the description for ㅅ is helpful with the ipa sound as 90% of people have no idea what ɕ even sounds like. I think we should be more descriptive on it's difference english. Which is pretty hard to even describe as it's very slight. --DigitalSoju 05:56, 21 October 2010 (PDT)
Missing file
'모두 (every)' seems to be missing its file, File:Medu M.mp3. --Gwern 18:52, 6 June 2010 (PDT)
- Thank you for finding that! I've fixed the filename.--DigitalSoju 19:14, 6 June 2010 (PDT)
As is '모래 (sand)', eg File:Morae H.mp3. --Gwern 18:28, 7 June 2010 (PDT)
'마시다 (to drink)' is missing one of its files, File:Asida M.mp3. --Gwern 09:08, 18 June 2010 (PDT)
Mispronunciation
I've been wondering about "드라마 (drama)". The hangul has 3 blocks, so 3 syllables. But when I listen to it, it sounds exactly as if it has 2 syllables (sort of like 'dla-ma'), and I can't hear 3 syllables. Are the speakers really pronouncing it right, or are they pronouncing it as they know it would be in English (just 2 syllables)? --Gwern 03:13, 9 July 2010 (PDT)
- Great question Gwern. Perhaps we wish answer this on one of the pages too. The first syllable is like saying D in English, but Korean needs a consonant and a vowel paired. So usually often words with the 으 vowel paired with a noun don't get the 으 emphasized. Another example is 스트레스 (stress). The first two syllables (스트) don't have the 으 vowel really emphasized. Does that make sense? I might include this in the FAQ if you found this answer satisfactory. Also do you have any comments on any other sections? Any difficulties? Please let us know as we are constantly trying to make it better --DigitalSoju 05:46, 9 July 2010 (PDT)
- Well, that's quite an answer from the two of you. I'm not entirely sure I understand it, but I think I'll come back when I've finished all the steps.
- The most annoying thing about the tutorial so far is that it's quite difficult to turn into flashcards (I use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition_software#Software to learn everything permanent). The sound files are the most valuable thing here for me - pronunciation is hard, and there don't seem to be any worthwhile Korean-English dictionaries with audio. The Flash means I can't just go through the wikimarkup and grab URLs to download the MP3s, but I have to edit the source down to internal wikilinks, escape them, prepend a string like "http://www.koreanwikiproject.com/wiki/File:", download the File: page, scrape that for the actual MP3 file location (which varies randomly for no reason that I can see), and then I can feed the URLs into wget. This isn't as bad as it sounds thanks to Emacs macros, but it's still very annoying. I'm not sure what you guys could do about it, though.
- Perhaps you could change the Flash stuff so it doesn't infinitely loop the sound? A few repetitions is really enough. --Gwern 04:20, 3 August 2010 (PDT)
- Hi Gwern. Thanks again for your feedback. The problem is we can't put a set number to loop it, and also because the way the player is, if we don't loop it and the user presses the play button again, it will only play the last sound instead of starting at the beginning. In the future i'd like a different implementation, but at the moment there aren't many options. --DigitalSoju 00:57, 4 August 2010 (PDT)
- Perhaps you could file a bug report with whomever wrote that MW extension; I can't be the only person annoyed by the infinite loop. --Gwern
- The problem is there is no bug with the player. It's set to loop infinitely in the options (until you manually hit stop). Hear it as many times as you want, then hit the stop button, move onto the next sound. That's how these lessons were designed with that player in mind. --DigitalSoju 02:18, 4 August 2010 (PDT)
- Perhaps you could file a bug report with whomever wrote that MW extension; I can't be the only person annoyed by the infinite loop. --Gwern
- Gwern, from my knowledge I can tell you that the audibility of ㅡ in many cases is slight. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that words using it will not sound as you would expect. Natives, of course, will naturally roll such sounds together to the point where they may not easily be recognized. Perhaps this is the case in this scenario.
- On the other hand, the example you presented, 드라마, is a loanword originating from English. As is likely obvious, most Koreans have at least some background in English, and, if these people have a considerable knowledge of accurate English phonetics, they may realize that 드라마 is loanword and thus adapt its pronunciation to sound more like its mother, drama. This could be the case with the guest speakers.
- To elaborate on this thought, the onset of drama obvious includes "d" and "r", and, to account for that, ㄷ and ㄹ (respectively) must both be present. As DigitalSoju mentioned, consonants in hangeul must be accompanied with vowels and, as we know, more than one consonant may not appear in the beginning of any syllable. (Note, though, that double consonants are a different case. They are not two fundamentally different sounds, but instead are representations of a stressed form of the double letter composing it. Thus, we may leave them outside this consideration.) When importing this word into Korean, these rules must be obeyed. To accompany this rule, Koreans often appropriately insert the vowel "ㅡ" to acquire the sound of a single English letter. (Example: Brad has two consonants in its onset. We would then need b = 브 to at least accompany the first.)
- This may seem slightly off-topic, but it's not. The fact that writing requires particular rules does not, in necessity, dictate the pronunciation of a word. In addition to having some knowledge of English phonetics, Koreans may also have (surprisingly) retained the pronunciation of drama in its passage to emerging speakers (that is, children of newer generations). Perhaps you may simply consider "ㅡ" as being an agent of writing rather than pronunciation.
- If that is not satisfactory, then perhaps you may also consider the sound of "ㅡ". When undergoing the process of writing an English word in hangeul, those who transliterate must obey the aforementioned rules. To find a vowel to accompany a consonant, they would need one whose sound is slight and not particularly noticeable when reading as being an agent of phonetic transliteration. It also should blend with the consonant's pronunciation as best as possible. "ㅡ" fits this criteria the best among the other vowels.
- For example, if I wanted to transliterate the English word strange, I would need to pay careful attention to the onset, which contains three consonants. In hangeul, this is troublesome. To avoid it, we would use the above steps.
- Onset: "str" -> s = 스, t = 트, r = 랜 (Notice that I factored in the following rime in the transliteration of "r".)
- Rime: "ange" -> (Following from 랜...) ange = 즈
- Rough Transliteration: "strange" -> 스트랜즈
- Now, my goal is not to explain the process of transliteration, so I won't elaborate on everything. Just note that consonants appearing back-to-back in English words, like "str-" in strange, are subject to the mercy of the rules of hangeul when transliterating. It is therefore not guaranteed that "ㅡ" will maintain its full sound. Reiterating again, this is likely the case in 드라마. (Keep in mind that an alphabet is designed for a language's sounds. A language, then, is not entirely dependent on the sounds represented within that alphabet.)
- Anyway, my approach is probably overkill. These are just my thoughts and so should be taken critically ^^ . Also note that my transliteration in "스트랜즈" isn't exactly correct, though, for the sake of example, it well serves its purpose. Sorry if I repeated myself, too... I'm getting tired. If you've any questions, don't hesitate to post them on my talk page or respond here :) --Galinaros 22:34, 9 July 2010 (PDT)
Sorry, no, Australians should *not* be advised to say ㅐlike they would say the 'a' in 'trap'.
Pleasantries where they're due, I'm a first time discusser and I love this WIKI and the work put into it!
New Zealanders generally *do* say the 'a' in 'trap' like ㅐ, but Australians *don't* (I'm an Aussie) - unless they're imitating a Kiwi. If this can be amended, that'd be great.
ㅐ and North American English
Going through the lessons, I found the "dress" example for ㅐ to be very confusing. For North Americans, we say "dress" with the /ɛ/ vowel (/d͡ʒrɛs/), yet the recording for ㅐ sounds much more like /e/ (see here for a chart with audio - you'll have to click on the phonemes, I can't find a direct link to the sounds, sorry!). A better example might be to have readers compare it to the first vowel sound in the word "way." (maybe write "For North Americans, this is the first part of the vowel in the word way (IPA: /wei/). Be careful not to continue the vowel to the 'ee' sound."). I know that "way" is spoken with a diphthong (I couldn't think of any words that have /e/ without one), but this example is much closer to ㅐ for North Americans.
